Posts by Sea Breeze

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

Jesus warned people over 40 times not to choose to go to Hell.

Man is a tripartite being just like scripture says.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12

God died:

Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The biblical definition of death is separation:

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. - Gen 35: 18

When Jesus died, his soul/spirit became separated from his body. He died. When he was dead “he went and preached unto the spirits in prison” (hell) and then he raised himself from the dead…. while he was dead.

While dead, his body would appear as sleeping to an observer, would have no brain function and so his body would know nothing at all.

All souls who sin will also become separated from their body (die) (Ez. 18: 4). Jesus warned people not to choose to go to a place called hell.

Jesus told Nicodemas THREEE TIMES that you must be born again. Yet, the WT says, not to be born again. By choosing whom we believe, we choose where we will spend eternity.

16

Heretic!!!

by cellomould in

after the roman church had consolidated its power in the early middle ages, heretics came to be regarded as enemies of society.

the crime of heresy was defined as a deliberate denial of an article of truth of the catholic faith, and a public and obstinate persistence in that alleged error.

at this time, there was a sense of christian unity among townspeople and rulers alike, and most of them agreed with the church that heretics seemed to threaten society itself.. however, the repression of heresy remained unorganized, and with the large scale heresies in the 11th and 12th centuries, pope gregory ix instituted the papal inquisition in 1231 for the apprehension and trial of heretics.

Sea Breeze

"From the birth of Popery in 606 to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of popery." -- "History of Romanism," pp. 541, 542. New York: 1871.

Article

16

Heretic!!!

by cellomould in

after the roman church had consolidated its power in the early middle ages, heretics came to be regarded as enemies of society.

the crime of heresy was defined as a deliberate denial of an article of truth of the catholic faith, and a public and obstinate persistence in that alleged error.

at this time, there was a sense of christian unity among townspeople and rulers alike, and most of them agreed with the church that heretics seemed to threaten society itself.. however, the repression of heresy remained unorganized, and with the large scale heresies in the 11th and 12th centuries, pope gregory ix instituted the papal inquisition in 1231 for the apprehension and trial of heretics.

Sea Breeze

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eklimGl7QE

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

Looks like the early Christians believed Jesus when he warned about Hell over 40 times. Why don't the JW's do the same?

From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)

Barnabas, was the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the City Overseer of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)

Clement was the City Overseeer of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. “Second Clement” reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)

This work was written by an Early Church Leader (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

77

How would you define RELIGION, and why?

by Fernando in

"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.

this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .

this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.

Sea Breeze

@Jeffro -

With all due respect, you have droned on for pages of posts without saying anything in support of your position. While your posts have plenty of denunciation, ad hominum attacks, and other logical fallacies, you haven't offered EVEN ONE example of complex (or even simple for that matter) information being generated by inanimate substances.... like chemicals, rocks, gasses etc.

Surely you must realize this total lack of support for your position? All you have to do is provide an example. Is that too much to ask? Is your worldview so fragile that to even contemplate evidence (or lack thereof) is an existential threat to you personally?

I gave you 12 reasons for my position. What's the hold up on your end?

77

How would you define RELIGION, and why?

by Fernando in

"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.

this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .

this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.

Sea Breeze

Is there someone who really understands it [information], and can explain it so us lay-people can see where the issue is?

@TonusOH

I think you know what information is the same as Jeffro does. I think anyone who has ever left a note for their kids to do something understands it as well. A rebellious kid might try to play dumb and say they didn't understand that the information was left by his parent or was too confusing, or didn't know it was directed at him, etc.

But, wise parents won't buy what the rebelliouis child is selling & will try to get to the root of the problem and try to get the child to own up to the feigned ignorance and restore the relationahsip. God is no different.

39

Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Sea Breeze

lacks sufficient communication skills

@ Desiriousof Change - Providing the most widely circulated book in the world is pretty good communicatuon.

In Matthew 10:32 Jesus said that we must confess His name and the point He is making is that in order to be saved we must acknowledge that only He can save us.

So, what a lot of people do? They change Jesus' identity, or they trust in Jehovah instead, or they try to add their good works or their church to the rescue offer and end up disappointed.

The problem isn't one of delivery of the message, it is one of receiving it..... as is - without changing the terms.

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already

39

Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Sea Breeze

Rattigan,

Christians belive Jesus because they belong to him. People who don't belong to him try to change what he said. Jesus spoke about hell, his apostles spoke about hell, and so did their disciples and so on to the present day. There was originally complete unity on this topic as the quotes I provided to you show. There is no room for a symbolic interpretation on this subject. Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said, same as the apostles and their disciples.

Jesus did not say that he would raise himself.

Jesus did claim that he would raise himself from the dead, while he was still dead. That is why it is such a big deal. It was very dificult to ignore.

John 10:17–18 - For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.

John 2: 18 - 20 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple,[c] and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

The fact that the scriptures say that Jesus would raise himself from the dead and also says that God raised him from the dead is something that you are just going to have to deal with.

77

How would you define RELIGION, and why?

by Fernando in

"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.

this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .

this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.

Sea Breeze

Furthermore, information theory, a branch of mathematics and computer science, demonstrates that information is fundamentally EXPLAINS ~~tied to~~ physical systems.

There I fixed the statement. We already know that information is "tied" or explains physical things, that's not the point. But what is the process of information formation? That's the question. A physical book doesn't explain HOW the information got on its pages. Doesn't make any sense.

Let's take just one bit of information ... say the number 3. If I use it every day for for a week, or for a year of more, could I wear it out? How much weight does it have? The fact is that the number 3 is a symbol, a representation as opposed to something physical. It's an idea existing in my mind.

The fact that in all of human history, neither you nor your ChapGPT can find even one example where coded information was created from inanimate materials is staggering to the senses when you realize that you use this 100% lack of evidence as support for an entire worldview. Wow.

Now compare that with the amount of information, energy and coding necessary to raise yourself from the dead, while you are dead, which is what Jesus claimed he would do, and then did it.... with hundreds of eyewitnesses.

Did it really happen? The list of facts below “considers only those data that are so strongly attested historically that they are granted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the rather skeptical ones” :

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic and opposer).

While the above is far from "proof". There aren't any good explanations to explain these facts away. But, compared to a worldview where there are zero examples of information arising from matter, it is a vast improvement. Especially when you consider the incredibly wise things that Jesus said that have greatly benefitted mankind and helped to moderate many human excesses.

Instead of turning our minds over to 7th grade drop outs, window washers, and janitors like we once did, or to artificial intelligence like you are now doing, doesn't Jesus seem like a better option? It does to me.

That's why the Christian experience is more that a religion, or worldview. It is a dynamic relationship with someone who is alive and authored all the information there has ever been, or ever will be.

Only someone like that could raise himself from the dead.

77

How would you define RELIGION, and why?

by Fernando in

"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.

this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .

this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.

Sea Breeze

@Jeffro

I am flattered by your efforts to restrict my comments. I couldn't help but notice the misdirection to molecules from information. Molecules have no bearing on the information do they? It would be like making copies of blank sheets of paper and wondering why a book didn't magically appear on the paper that could be read front to back for one set of instructions and then back to front for a different story and then again be read three dimensionally once all waded up....because these are just some of the ways the information on DNA is read.

So again, can you please explain how complex coded information appears from chemicals?